Curse

Daesu · Jun 20, 2012, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

What skill would you suggest as a replacement?

Just to note; when calling with this build, you'd be a fool to cast on a single foe when there is a mob of foes waiting to be nuked.

And I have always said, the hero AI is foolish, how else would you explain casting Epidemic on the last foe standing?

You can use the word, "micro", again but that is becoming a pain. There are lots of other energy management skills without this downside, but each with its pros/cons, other than Power Drain, you have Waste Not, Want Not, Leech Signet, etc.

My Player Person · Jun 20, 2012, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Deasu Deasu>

Markway <3 Needs a lot of micro'ing which is the only annoying issue.

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And I have always said, the hero AI is foolish, how else would you explain casting Epidemic on the last foe standing?

You can use the word, "micro", again but that is becoming a pain. There are lots of other energy management skills without this downside, but each with its pros/cons, other than Power Drain, you have Waste Not, Want Not, Leech Signet, etc.

Epidemic has no use in any format... I would be fuming if it were used in a mob also. I'd select the hero, then spam-call the fact it was using Epidemic at all.

The point is you're always getting a benefit from Drain, no matter what you remove. The only reason it would be a bad skill is if it removed *any* hex, e.g. Mark of Pain or Assassin's Promise; skills that are integral to the team. Shared and Frag are not.

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Epidemic has no use in any format... I would be fuming if it were used in a mob also. I'd select the hero, then spam-call the fact it was using Epidemic at all.

The point is you're always getting a benefit from Drain, no matter what you remove. The only reason it would be a bad skill is if it removed *any* hex, e.g. Mark of Pain or Assassin's Promise; skills that are integral to the team. Shared and Frag are not.

I have to disagree, you are leaving it up to the hero AI to decide when to cast Shared and when to remove it. So if one mesmer hero casts shared on a melee foe who is hammering at her, then another mesmer hero immediately removes it for energy, who is right and who is wrong?

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I have to disagree, you are leaving it up to the hero AI to decide when to cast Shared and when to remove it. So if one mesmer hero casts shared on a melee foe who is hammering at her, while another mesmer hero removes it for energy, who is right and who is wrong?

You have Displacement and Enfeebling Blood to fall back on in the face of melee damage. For caster damage you have Panic/Mistrust and dead foes.

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

You have Displacement and Enfeebling Blood to fall back on in the face of melee damage. For caster damage you have Panic/Mistrust and dead foes.

Are you implying that Shared Burden is a useless skill and you are just using it as a placeholder? Because if you are, you might as well bring Ineptitude instead of wasting an elite slot.

But Shared Burden is a useful elite that only costs 5e and having it may save at least a 100+ hit at your mesmer in HM. Even though WNWN returns less energy, it doesn't have the drawback of removing a needed mesmer hex at the time when you need it most. The hero AI typically doesn't make good decisions for these situations, if it does, it does it by pure luck.

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Are you implying that Shared Burden is a useless skill and you are just using it as a placeholder? Because if you are, you might as well bring Ineptitude instead of wasting an elite slot.

But Shared Burden is a useful elite that only costs 5e and having it may save at least a 100+ hit at your mesmer in HM. Even though WNWN returns less energy, it doesn't have the drawback of removing a needed mesmer hex at the time when you need it most. The hero AI typically doesn't make good decisions for these situations, if it does, it does it by pure luck.

I'm not at all implying that. I am explaining that the loss of one proc of Shared for energy is no real hardship and that there are layers of defence.

No mesmer hex being removed by the last 3-5~ seconds of the fight will turn the tide of the battle. You're living in a fantasy world if you want to argue that. It is the best skill for energy management, in terms of EPS.

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I'm not at all implying that. I am explaining that the loss of one proc of Shared for energy is no real hardship and that there are layers of defence.

No mesmer hex being removed by the last 3-5~ seconds of the fight will turn the tide of the battle. You're living in a fantasy world if you want to argue that. It is the best skill for energy management, in terms of EPS.

You do not know that it will ONLY be used in the last 3-5 seconds of the fight. Yes, it is no hardship but neither is WNWN and it doesn't have that drawback.

It is not a big deal so it defers to personal preference as to which energy skill they prefer since each has its pros and cons. As for me, I would probably replace your dervishes with mesmer and necro heroes and use hex eater signet instead.

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I would probably replace your dervishes with mesmer and necro heroes and use hex eater signet instead.

Then you're not running this team and this whole argument has been pointless...

Before arguing about optionals, how about having some faith in the team as a whole? If you want to drop the dervs, you have no idea how it works. Subtle fact, there.

/fin

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Then you're not running this team and this whole argument has been pointless...

Before arguing about optionals, how about having some faith in the team as a whole? If you want to drop the dervs, you have no idea how it works. Subtle fact, there.

/fin

We talked about that before and you agreed with me that the melee AI has some issues in certain areas. Casters require less micro and do not have those drawback. MoP and Splinter can also be triggered by your casters wielding spears. At the end we should be comparing alternatives. Is Drain Delusions better than WNWN? Is a dervish hero a better choice than a mesmer hero?

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

We talked about that before and you agreed with me that the melee AI has some issues in certain areas. Casters require less micro and do not have those drawback. MoP and Splinter can also be triggered by your casters wielding spears. At the end we should be comparing alternatives. Is Drain Delusions better than WNWN? Is a dervish hero a better choice than a mesmer hero?

There are only two things I would change in the build to make it more survivable. Firstly, Veil of Thorns on the dervs for spell protection, Enfeebling Blood on the ST over Fall Back and GDW on the player for knockdowns. If you need anymore defence than that, just switch teams completely.

Drain and WNWN are interchangeable; but Drain is definitely superior.

Relyk · Jun 21, 2012, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Triggering MoP and Splinter with spears on casters is a terrible theorycraft.

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

Triggering MoP and Splinter with spears on casters is a terrible theorycraft.

That is a whole different topic that we can all argue about. Besides last I checked, rits are casters and Markway rits are recommended to use spears. The mesmers are just exploiting ANA, otherwise they would be using spears also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Drain and WNWN are interchangeable; but Drain is definitely superior.

In terms of energy returned perhaps, but with a drawback. WNWN suffice for most situations otherwise this build would need to switch to Drain Delusions if Drain Delusions is so clearly superior.

HigherMinion · Jun 21, 2012, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is a whole different topic that we can all argue about. Besides last I checked, rits are casters and Markway rits are recommended to use spears. The mesmers are just exploiting ANA, otherwise they would be using spears also.

In terms of energy returned perhaps, but with a drawback. WNWN suffice for most situations otherwise this build would need to switch to Drain Delusions if Drain Delusions is so clearly superior.

Look at the hexes in that build; they all terminate very quickly. Clumsiness, Wandering Eye and Panic all end at unpredictable times already. However, it would synergise well with Arcane Conundrum which would end up filling your blue bar.

Also, protip: if you use spears on all your casters, you will HAVE to micro Splinter. Annoyingly, the AI doesn't prioritise Splinter on the scythe-wielders.

Daesu · Jun 21, 2012, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Look at the hexes in that build; they all terminate very quickly. Clumsiness, Wandering Eye and Panic all end at unpredictable times already. However, it would synergise well with Arcane Conundrum which would end up filling your blue bar.

Also, protip: if you use spears on all your casters, you will HAVE to micro Splinter. Annoyingly, the AI doesn't prioritise Splinter on the scythe-wielders.

True, or they can drain Panic. Draining Arcane Conundrum is nice but I suspect they didn't use Drain Delusions because of the drawback.

Good point on the Splinter, that should actually be included in the Usage notes.

HigherMinion · Jun 22, 2012, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

True, or they can drain Panic. Draining Arcane Conundrum is nice but I suspect they didn't use Drain Delusions because of the drawback.

You'll hardly notice Panic being removed from one foe, because it's just one proc of rupts. If you Panic a mob of 6, and you drain one or two of them, you're still left with 3-4s window where they can't cast or attack. Not using Drain is just a defence-fag approach to building. WNWN's disadvantage requires they're not casting anything. Are AI smart enough to cast WNWN when a foe isn't casting? Why not just use e-Tap?

Premium Unleaded · Jun 22, 2012, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Are AI smart enough to cast WNWN when a foe isn't casting?

Yes and they're very, very good at using it.

Daesu · Jun 22, 2012, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Not using Drain is just a defence-fag approach to building. WNWN's disadvantage requires they're not casting anything. Are AI smart enough to cast WNWN when a foe isn't casting? Why not just use e-Tap?

Yes, the AI does attempt to use WNWN when a foe isn't casting. That said, there will be times when the AI "misses" in the sense that WNWN is cast as the foe is about to cast a spell but they are still better at it than a lagged out human mesmer.

As for those short-lived hexes like Ineptitude, clumsiness, wandering eye, mistrust, etc. even though chances are they would not be drained, there is still a chance for them to be drain if Drain Delusion is cast at the right moment. I suppose that is good enough reason for them to use WNWN instead of Drain Delusions.

Relyk · Jul 21, 2012, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Heroes removing inept/wandering/clumsiness with drain delusions is quite rare if it happens at all. The only skills you can about getting removed are Wandering Eye and Mistrust. Ineptitude, Shared Burden, and Clumsiness are on different recharge times, none of them will cycle with Drain Delusions. Wandering Eye will cycle with it, fortunately or unfortunately, heroes will only use this on foes that are attacking or kiting, which makes it inconsistent. In addition, heroes will prioritize using offensive skills before Drain Delusions. You have a maximum of a 4 second interval where heroes will stack Wandering Eye on Clumsiness. Because Clumsiness has a shorter recharge, heroes will end up stacking it on top of Wandering Eye ~67% of the time. That can vary depending on how often Wandering Eye is actually used by the hero. Stick in Arcane Conundrum and you give another cover for both skills and the ability to use Drain Delusions while both skills are recharging.

Heroes removing Clumsiness isn't a big deal. It hits an a per-foe basis so getting it removed on one enemy isn't significant. Because it recharging so fast (~6 seconds), you're not going to miss the damage on a single foe. The same goes for Ineptitude although you can miss that damage against single foes, but it's equally likely to remove the subsequent cast of Wandering Eye or Clumsiness.

Mistrust is even less likely because it doesn't require an enemy to finish using a skill or attack, it triggers immediately. If an enemy doesn't try using a skill for more than a couple seconds (because of constant interruption from Panic and otherwise), it's quite likely he won't try using a spell at all. That can be quite arbitrary to say because an enemy can use a spell after a second or so so you still have the chance of DD removing Mistrust. Like I said at the start, you don't see that happen often, either because Panic gets stack on top or the Illusion mesmer covers it.

Heroes are terrible inconsistent with WNWN and DD is superior energy management in all situations (if not perfectly efficient); if you are using Shared Burden, Panic, and Fragility with the option to include Arcane Conundrum, the disadvantages become trivial.